Welcome back to A Read of Ice and Fire! Please join me as I read and react, for the very first time, to George R.R. Martin’s epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
Today’s entry is Part 50 of A Storm of Swords, in which we cover Chapter 77 (“Tyrion”).
Previous entries are located in the Index. The only spoilers in the post itself will be for the actual chapters covered and for the chapters previous to them. As for the comments, please note that the Powers That Be have provided you a lovely spoiler thread here on Tor.com. Any spoileriffic discussion should go there, where I won’t see it. Non-spoiler comments go below, in the comments to the post itself.
And now, the post!
Chapter 77: Tyrion
What Happens
Tyrion waits in his cell and wonders if they will give him a public execution, or if they will kill him privately so that no one can hear what he might say first. To his shock, though, Jaime comes to his cell. He shows Tyrion his amputated hand, and Tyrion laughs hysterically. He calls them “Handless and Noseless, the Lannister boys,” and asks if Jaime is there to kill him. Jaime tells him he is scheduled to be beheaded on the tourney grounds the next morning, but it doesn’t matter, as Jaime is here to rescue him.
They banter as they leave the cell; Jaime explains that Varys had dosed the guards with sweetsleep, and is waiting above to take Tyrion to a galley bound for the Free Cities. Tyrion points out that a noseless dwarf will hardly be inconspicuous no matter where he goes, and Jaime laughs and kisses him on either cheek. Tyrion thanks him for saving his life, and Jaime replies that he owed Tyrion a debt. Tyrion asks what debt.
His brother looked away. “Tysha,” he said softly.
“Tysha?” His stomach tightened. “What of her?”
“She was no whore. I never bought her for you. That was a lie that Father commanded me to tell. Tysha was… she was what she seemed to be. A crofter’s daughter, chance met on the road.”
Jaime says their father said she was a commoner after Lannister gold, which made her no different from a whore, and that Tyrion would learn a lesson, and thank Jaime later. He begs Tyrion to believe that he didn’t know what would happen, and Tyrion backhands him, knocking him to the ground. Jaime says he supposes he earned that.
“Oh, you’ve earned more than that, Jaime. You and my sweet sister and our loving father, yes, I can’t begin to tell you what you’ve earned. But you’ll have it, that I swear to you. A Lannister always pays his debts.”
Jaime offers to go with him, but Tyrion declines. He asks if Jaime can fight left-handed, and Jaime answers, not as well as Tyrion. Tyrion replies that they will be well-matched if they meet again, then. Jaime demands truth for truth, and asks if Tyrion killed Joffrey. Tyrion points out that Joffrey would have been a worse king even than Aerys, who tried to kill Brandon Stark and would have killed Tyrion too. Jaime says Tyrion didn’t answer the question, and Tyrion snaps back that yes, he killed Jaime’s “vile son.” Jaime walks away without a word. Tyrion almost calls him back to say he lied, but thinks of Tysha and doesn’t.
Tyrion finds Varys, who tells him he dared not speak for Tyrion at his trial, but that Jaime is “most persuasive.” Tyrion threatens to kill him, and Varys sighs that the spider is never loved, and points out that Tyrion will never find his way out without him. Tyrion asks where Sansa is, and Varys replies that his little birds are silent on the matter. He takes Tyrion down into the fourth level of the dungeons, and insists they go in darkness. Tyrion is wary, but accepts this.
Eventually they emerge to a chamber that Tyrion recognizes as being below the Tower of the Hand, and decides, despite Varys’s protests, to climb up to Tywin’s bedchamber through the secret passage there before heading to the ship. The ladder climb is agony, but he makes it up, and finds that the passage exits at the hearth. He goes in, and finds Shae there, naked except for the Hand’s chain of office. She protests to him that the queen made her say the things she did. Tyrion asks her if she ever liked being with him, and she says “more than anything.” Tyrion thinks it was the worst thing she could have said, and strangles her with the chain.
Then he takes a crossbow and loads it, and goes to find his father in the privy chamber. Tywin greets him coolly, and asks who released him, surmising it is Varys. He demands that Tyrion put down the crossbow, opining that Tyrion would never have the courage to shoot him, and claims that he still intends to send Tyrion to the Wall rather than the headsman. Tyrion ignores this, and asks instead what Tywin did with Tysha. Tywin claims he doesn’t remember at first, but then says he supposes the steward sent her away after she’d “learned her place”. Tyrion asks where. Tywin replies, “wherever whores go,” and Tyrion shoots him in the groin. Tywin is astounded, and Tyrion asks him to do him a favor and die quickly.
For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosened in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.
Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold.
Commentary
AHAHHAHAHAHA wow.
No, like WOW.
Okay.
Soooo, that just happened. Holy shit.
…HAHAHA literally, right? “Holy shit.” I See What I Accidentally Did There.
(‘Cause he was shitting, see, and Tyrion put a hole in him, and… yes, okay, I’ll shut up now. Yes, I know. Yes, I’m sorry.)
And my other immediate thought on this, aside from flabbergasted glee, is: Why, I do declare, Mr. Martin! Was that, perchance, actual poetic justice, killing an asshole in his asshole while he’s using his asshole? Is that symmetry? Is that allowed? Are we not deconstructing this trope today?
Apparently we are not. To which I say: FUCKIN’ A.
FINALLY, SOMEONE DIES WHO DESERVED IT.
Well, in addition to Joffrey, of course. And Viserys. And Whatshisguts, the Mummer guy. Hoat. And Balon. And Gregor Clegane, assuming he did actually die and not make a miraculous recovery, which I wouldn’t put past him, the jerk. And others I’m sure I’m forgetting.
…so fine, a lot of the people who have died have deserved it. But Tywin especially deserved it, okay?
Even more so than Joffrey in some ways, as long as you go with my theory that Joffrey was so fundamentally broken inside that he almost can’t be blamed for his cruelty (“almost” being the operative word here, mind you), as opposed to Tywin, whose pathology is infinitely colder, more deliberate, and more self-aware than Joffrey’s ever was. Joffrey was cruel because that was literally his only response to anything that happened to him; Tywin was cruel because it got him the results he wanted (if, perhaps, not the ultimate result here.) I leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide which version of monstrosity is scarier.
So, yeah, kind of gleeful shock over that death, because I honestly was not expecting Tywin to bite it so soon; I figured he was going to be around for a while. And of course there are all the requisite ambiguous feelings that seem to surround just about any death in this series: I am glad that Tywin is dead, but I hesitate to say I am “glad” that Tyrion killed him. Because on the one hand, if anyone had cause to whack that douchebag Tyrion did, but on the other, patricide is not a burden I would wish on anyone’s conscience, no matter how justified.
Not to mention, this significantly changes the political situation in King’s Landing, and not necessarily for the better. I have to assume that with Tywin (and Tyrion) out of the way, Cersei is going to be pretty much running the show. And while in principle I am in favor of Chicks In Charge (ChIC, whoo!), this particular chick is… problematic, to say the least. Whatever happens in court after this, though, is sure to be… dramatic and interesting. Of that, I have no doubt.
I don’t even want to talk about Shae, but of course I have to. But I don’t wanna, because it just makes me sad. Again, so much ambivalence, so little time. Because it’s just so sucky: I understand why Tyrion killed her, because she did betray him, but at the same time I understand why Shae felt she had no choice but to betray him, and it’s really hard to say to someone, “well, you should have stood on principle and died for it” when that person has made no prior oath or commitment to doing so, or even had any belief that standing on principle would yield any tangible results—especially someone who was in such a fundamentally untenable position as Shae had been from the beginning.
Ugh, the whole thing was just inevitable and terrible and sad. And which also makes me glad all over again that Tywin is dead, because oh my GOD what a fucking hypocrite he was, castigating and torturing Tyrion over his “whores” and then taking one of them into his own damn bed. I hope you burn in the Westeros equivalent of hell, you fuckknob.
Speaking of alleged “whores,” the revelation about Tysha here was… well, it was just fucking heartbreaking, is what it was. Though not all that surprising. I mean, I didn’t guess it beforehand or anything, but the revelation that she was not in fact a prostitute was not surprising at all, because as I may have mentioned, Tywin Lannister is (or was, hehehehe) a giant dickface.
But, she might still be alive?? Holy crap. I had totally assumed she was dead. As, apparently, had Tyrion. So I guess we know what Tyrion’s next quest is going to be. I might be wrong, but I don’t think he’s getting on that ship to the Free Cities.
And then there’s this:
“I am the monster they all say I am. Yes, I killed your vile son.” [Tyrion] made himself grin. It must have been a hideous sight to see, there in the torchlit gloom.
AAAAGGHHH *headdesk* *headdesk* *headdesk*
Aw, for fuck’s sake. Look, I totally get it; if I had just heard that news about my first love I would have been white-hot with irrational rage too. And I think there is also still something in there about Tyrion wanting to protect Sansa. But oh my GOD what a terrible decision to lie to Jaime about Joffrey in retaliation, Tyrion! That is so going to come back to bite you in the ass later! And that’s not prediction, that is common fucking sense! AGH
There’s something in here about not burning your bridges, which is kind of hilarious considering that Tyrion then went on to murder his own father, but the thing is, I’m pretty sure killing Tywin would not have been a dealbreaker for Jaime, but killing Joffrey? Not so much. Even if mourning Joffrey makes Jaime sort of irrational in turn. And I’m just saying, Tyrion really really doesn’t have so many allies that he can afford to throw any of them away, which is totally what he just did with Jaime.
But then again, Tysha. Because, urrrgh. Practically speaking, alienating Jaime was a terribly stupid thing to do, but viscerally, Tyrion’s impulse to say fuck you, Jaime was… kind of legit.
Just one more clusterfuck in the works, I have no doubt. Blurgh.
The worst part of all of this, of course, is that the truly most wounded party in all of it was Tysha herself. By rights she should have been the one to shoot Tywin in the dick, but, well. Can’t have everything, I suppose.
I arrived here a King’s Hand, riding through the gates at the head of my own sworn men, Tyrion reflected, and I leave like a rat scuttling through the dark, holding hands with a spider.
But hey, dude, you’re still leaving. And not in a pine box, either. Count your blessings.
And that’s what that is, folks! Have a week, and see you next Thursday!
So all in all not much happened this week . . .
The line that made Tyrion shoot Shae was not the “more than anything”- it was that she added “my giant of Lannister”. That was the line in the trial that pushed the crowd into a frenzy of laughter, when she said that Tyrion demanded she call him that. So her using it seductively now just reminded Tyrion of her betrayal…
Yes, Tyrion lying to Jaime is a bad idea, especially when he is so starved for allies. But I can’t really blame him for being angry at Jaime, even though we know that Jaime has changed from the arrogant prick he used to be.Plus the whole blame for the Tysha event still goes to Tywin, it’s not like Jaime had much choice to disobey his father.
GRRM loves shocking or memorable chapter endings, but this one will always stand out as one of the greatest closing lines to a chapter in any book by any author EVER.
Whoa.
How can you not continue reading after something like this? I applaud your self control, Leigh, and look forward to next week’s post.
One bright point about these books is that after reading about these messed up Lannisters, I find my own family not nearly as messed up as I thought when growing up. We all have our familial baggage but nothing to compete against these Lovely Lannisters. You think they just hit rock bottom, no one can top that (Lolz) sort of thing and then They do it again.
Huh,
Guess I had more to say than I thought.
-DFTBA
I always wondered if Tywin was lying to save his life when he told Tyrion that he was being sent to the Wall, not executed. I bet Cersie would have been freaking out if true.
I laugh at all the idiots who put down the book after the Red Wedding.
You see Leigh, no space aliens needed for Tyrion’s rescue after all. Just Jaime. Well, that escalated quickly :(. Stupid Lannister boys. And yes, Tywins death comes relatively quickly here.
Yeah, good luck with that in AFFC. :P (Edited: foreshadowing)
I can’t even remember if this is the last chapter in the book or not. I kind of expected this reaction from the Arya chapter but I will take it here :)
Yep, it was all surprising, it’s why we love this series.
Yea! I really think this is the chapter that made SoS an over the top AMAZING read.
And it’s been the 2ndmost (?) anticipated chapter of the read. But I think everybody has been better about not spoiling it for you than they were about the wedding hints.
Tyrion must be very strong to climbed all those ladder rungs after being confined.
No quote of “my giant of Lannister”?
“dramatic and interesting. Of that, I have no doubt.” After your D&E reads. =)
Shae: Almost makes you wish Tyrion had left a standing order with Bronn: “If anything happens to me, grab her, grab gold and leave.”
And doesn’t this mean that with Tysha alive, his marriage to Sansa is invalid?
And yes, leaving like a rat is still leaving!
Thank you Leigh for such a great reaction and commentary!
@7: Knowing Tywin, he probably had that marriage annulled like hell when that was over.
There are three chapters left, DougL, plus the epilogue.
I think Tywin really wanted to send Tyrion to the Wall, Black Dread. It’s not that he ever cared about what Cersei would rather want.
Yeah, I think it’s safe to say that everyone in King’s Landing will be dancing the Charlie Foxtrot in the next book.
In a book chock full of awesome-bomb chapters (as I hope you will now agree), this one definitely makes the list. And you’re totally correct to point out the terrible-ness and the ambiguity that laces it. I mean, of course the first flush of reaction is to say “Hell yeah! Who’s the BOSS?! Tyrion’s the BOSS, that’s who!”
But then reflect…he’s not just a double murderer (and forget the old sexist common law “heat of passion” finding-your-wife-in-bed-with-another-man defense, which ain’t all that great of a defense, IMO), but a parricide as well. No matter how seemingly deserved (I may not entirely believe it, but I think a case can be made for Tywin as a “good” ruler in a very strictly utilitarian sense – his brother Kevin made it in an earlier chapter), killing your father is a whole ‘nother kettle of karmic fish.
Also, Jaime, coming to grips with his new-found conscience, and what does it get him? Not that it’s not deserved, I suppose, but man, the two wounded (and I don’t just mean physically, obviously) Lannister boys, at odds who should be allies. It hurts, it does.
Oh, and one final comment: I have always, always thought that Varys here with Tyrion is so very much in the “he doth protest too much” camp. Oh, no, my lord, you mustn’t go up there (but if you do, it’s 234 rungs, turn left, go 15 paces, pull the lever on the upper right wall…), but really, we don’t have time and you really can’t do it, pretty please?
Yeah, Varys totally wanted to send Tyrion up there and see what sh*t he would stir up (to magnificent results, from Varys’s point of view, I’m sure).
Nothing to see here, no sirree. Moving on.
Just kidding. I felt so bad for Jaime here. He’s turned a leaf, he’s trying to do the right things, he tries being honest with his brother … and gets its right back in the face, with maximum prejudice. Wow. Tyrion literally loses it and one suspects it will take him quite some time to get over these blows.
I thought the Tywin-Shae hookup adds new layers onto Tywin’s character. Recall that there was the secret passage from the Hand’s room to Chatayah’s and it was done by an earlier Hand? Our leading candidate may have just stepped to the fore. Also, now we may have a sense of what was driving Tywin’s “no whores” admonitions to Tyrion. Either he is a hypocrite (do as I say not as I do) or, adding layers like an onion, Tywin didn’t want his son to fall prey to the same cravings for prostitutes that appear to be torturing him.
This chapter was full of “oh shit!”.
So now you know I was kidding when I said GRRM would make you eventually love Tywin. Well, I guess he could make you love him post-humously.
But Walder Frey… just you wait, Leigh! Just you wait….
@11 A whole month-long debate could be made over how much Varys was behind Tywin’s demise- but not until after ADWD can we discuss it without spoilers. I agree, though, that for a man saying they were in a rush and that Tyrion should not go up the stairs, he was awfully quick to give detailed instructions on how to reach the Hand’s chambers. Definitely suspicious (or spider-like, weaving his webs…)
Did Tyrion climb the ladder to kill Tywin, or did it just develop that way?
He strangles a woman larger than himself and he does it quiet enough that a man in the next door doesn’t notice. Deliberate planning or luck?
My favourite chapter in the series. Thank you for not disappointing, Leigh.
Justice at last.
I figured you’d be a lot more upset over the whole Shae thing Leigh. It was a momentary act that has completely changed my perception of Tyrion.
And now we know what Jaime meant on the way to Harrenhal by ‘loved him for a lie’, and, in the process, Tyrion finds out that the one member of his family he truly respected and looked up to is only human, after all.
This fuckin’ family…
GRRM puts us through all kinds of hell…
But, oh, the payoffs!
With Littlefinger off on holiday to the Vale, Tywin was about the only person in the same intellectual ball-park as Varys.
Now he’s out of the way there’s no one as clever/scheming in the whole of Kings Landing.
Littlefinger is going to be well narked when he gets back.
Yes, this chapter is one of the reasons for why I say, as terrible as the Red Wedding is to get through, THIS BOOK has the most satisfying of endings.
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Shae’s death didn’t really bother me that much. She had to testify against Tyrion to save her own life. Jumping into Tywin’s bed after he sentenced Tyrion to death, wearing the chain, then trying her pillow talk on Tyrion…
I could only shrug as she died. Maybe I just set aside my moral compass whenever I open Martin’s books at this point.
Oooh, this is another chapter I’ve been waiting for you to get to, Leigh, and you did not disappoint.
You know, coming back to this story and reflecting on the themes therein, I have to celebrate Martin’s skill in setting up his central conflict of Stark vs. Lannister. It’s partially influenced by history (more than a little based on the struggle between York and Lancaster) but really, Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister are truly excellent foils of each other. Both men were the scions of Great Houses, who (for different reasons) had to step up to take control when their fathers failed. Both men proved themselves in battle, and came to be highly respected in their lands, and in the Kingdoms, although the way they went about it couldn’t have been more different. Both men’s lives revolve around honor and family: Where Ned promoted personal honor above all, and was a loving father to his children, Tywin promoted the Lannister name above all, and sacrificed his personal relationships for prestige. And hey, both approaches worked for a while (Tywin’s admittedly longer than Neds), but eventually, their flaws proved fatal. Ned took for granted that other people would be as honorable as he, and was trapped at the mercy of a tyrant who killed him. Tywin gave up his honorable reputation multiple times just to prove that Lannister House is to be feared, and dies at the hand of his own son that he wronged – the only one that could have been a suitable heir for the house. Starks are screwed because of underestimating their foes, Lannisters are just as screwed by underestimating its own family. It’s just too good.
@7. I think the entirety of the book is what made it such an AMAZING read. I mean the shit went down throughout the whole book, beginning w/ the action up north at The Fist and Crasters; Jaime/Brienne/The Bear, Ser Davos morality play, Tyrions Wedding, The Red Wedding,Joffreys Wedding, Dany’s Ascension, Arya/Hound Adventures climaxing w/ the Needle Reclamation, Tyrions Trial and Viper Trial by Combat. and now Tyrions escape. Just about every chapter/pov packed a punch in this book.GRRM’s writing was compelling and amazing throughout…the man just knows how to tell a story and can turn a phrase with the best of em, as referenced earlier about this chapter ending. I think SOS is without question the best in the series thus far!
Chapter 77-Tyrion:This should be an interesting chapter.
(Aside:I don’t check the table of contents so I don’t see what is coming next. In my scroll e-reader scroll bar, it shows that 104 pages remain but I suspect that much of that is tables or something as it was mentioned that there are 4 chapters left (counting this one) and an Epilogue. That doesn’t leave much room for Tyrion development in other chapters, so my hunch is that something big will happen in this chapter–we’ll see and now on with reading). By the way of another aside, I usually read these through a PC based Nook reader with a text editor in another window–dual monitors, so it is fairly convenient to jot down thoughts as I go.
Well, the first sentence seems to share my hunch as Tyrion hears noises and prepares to die. I am preparing for something but I don’t think he is going to die. I mentioned earlier that I think he is too interesting a character to just off–so I think these noises herald some other development. Someone is either coming to visit him for a very important talk or someone is about to break him out. We’ll have to see and I just spent more words than I have read into the chapter so far.
“Bugger you all.” seems like a pretty good response for someone locked into a dark dungeon cell.
Ooh, it is Jaime. Jaime’s going to save his brother (I think and I mentioned that as a possibility some time ago what with Jaime’s new found sense of duty.)
Ha! See, see! I am doing a happy bouncy chair dance right now. Of course with these books things could always go horribly wrong.™
Interesting, Varys is actively helping. Jaime is now in his active debt (and Tyrion too, but Tyrion has zero other options.) So, now Tyrion is going across the sea. Pretty soon everyone is going to wind up not in Westros. Dany, Ser Barristan, Arya and now Tyrion. (Also, he mentions the Faceless Men!)
Tysha wasn’t what Tyrion thought (I don’t think her horrid treatment was warranted in either case) and now he swears revenge. And, he’ll be in the free cities where Dany is headed eventually, that makes for a potential interesting alliance of bloody, nobody wins vengeance very keeping in the overall tone of things. From spite, he tells Jaime that he did kill Joff (who did deserve it as he says). That won’t come back either, now will it?, he asks rhetorically.
What is Tyrion planning on saying to his father, interesting, but oh so very dangerous and probably not wise. Two hundred and thirty rungs is a heck of a long way to climb. Especially for someone who has been in a dungeon. Just saying.
He kills Shae. She did betray him, but he really shouldn’t have expected otherwise. His was the power in that relationship. He is making a lot of choices that can’t be undone. Is he going to kill his father here?
Why, yes, that’s just what he did and:
Oh my! File that under I was not expecting it. Big time. That certainly opens up several bushels full of worms. The Lannister cause just got dealt a BIG setback. Stannis is kind of looking pretty well situated now. Uhm, let’s see there are the Dornes and possible infighting in King’s Landing and well, all sorts of places this could go.
These last few chapters have been great, by the way. In their way, even more important than the Red Wedding chapter that now seems so long ago.
What I love about this is the “Tywin Lannister shits gold” line was set up in the first book.
Tyrion strangled his thankless former whore
Now’s the time for a good blanket metaphore
Tywin tangled with the starks to get a war
then his mangled son the marksman shot him for
runining his marriage to the poor country whore.
He should of had him hauled off to the frozen shore.
Its funny that Shae ryhmes with Leigh
but in a really really sad way
What I’m trying to say is crime doesn’t pay
and neither does loving lannisters, any day.
————————————————————————
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It’s hilarious how happy you are about Tywin. You are much more forgiving of Shae than I was the first time through – I think you have to step back and try and look at it from her point of view which was initially hard for me because I was so firmly on Tyrion’s side and hurt so badly for him when she betrayed him – but yeah, she definitely didn’t deserve that.
And yes Tywin is an asshole and deserves to die, but I’m glad that you pointed out how troubling it is that Tyrion was the one to do it. That’s going to fuck you up emotionally – it’s kind of the same dilemma I have about Arya – on one level it’s awesome and badass when she kills horrible people, but it’s also troubling that a little girl is becoming so desensitized to death and killing.
This is probably the most important and character altering chapter for Tyrion in the whole series. Interesting that you think Jaime is going to try and avenge Joffrey? I think he knows that Joffrey was awful and he doesn’t have any paternal feelings towards him, and mainly he just feels guilt about Tysha – but yeah it’s really sad that probably the only positive connection that Tyrion had with a family member is now completely broken :(
@17, 29 (and general):
Am I the only one who found the “Shae in bed with Tywin” to be evidence that she had probably been working with/for him the whole time? I mean, Tywin constantly told Tyrion not to bring his whores to court, knowing full well Tyrion would not obey. Shae was found IN Tywin’s battle camp – brought to Tyrion by Bromm, who we have no reason to think he’s loyal or cares about Tyrion at all (whether he knew or not). And then her “confession” at the trial on top of being in Tywin’s bed – I’m not saying Tywin planned for the trial to happen, but it seems like Tywin could have planted Shae to spy on Tyrion and manipulate him. Totally seems like the thing Tywin would do.
Besides I’m sorry to say but Shae’s entire “act” while with Tyrion didn’t seem at all genuine to me – her constantly asking to be dressed richly and brought into the palace… Probably just hedging her bets that if Tywin didn’t pay her proper than Tyrion might.
(Also, typing Tywin and Tyrion over and over again close together is really hard…)
Which is why I didn’t care at all that she was killed. In fact I found it quite satisfying.
@30 – nah, she was a camp follower who got scooped up by Bronn for Tyrion’s bed. Bronn, in turn, was scooped up by Catlyn Stark when she got Tyrion arrested and asked for sell sword support. No far flung conspiracy with Tywin for either of them, at least not from the beginning.
I see Shae as just greedy and ambitious – she had a good thing going with Tyrion, since he loved her, and one could argue she took full advantage in order to set herself up longterm. She really didn’t have any choice but to backstab Tyrion at trial and with Tywin but coming up with those excessive details at trial (My Lion…) and, even worse, trying to play him rather than apologizing when he found her in Tywin’s chamber sealed her doom. I believe that if she apologized in Tywin’s room, she would have been heading out on a boat with him to the Free Cities.
I didn’t think Shae deserved to be killed, but I also didn’t blame Tyrion for killing her. Shae was doing what she had to do to survive now that Tyrion couldn’t protect her, and Tyrion wasn’t in the best frame of mind to be empathetic about that when he climbed that ladder. If anyone can be blamed for Shae’s death, it’s Tywin, but I think mostly she’s a victim of bad timing.
Murdering Tywin is easily the best thing Tyrion ever did. That monster had to be put down, father or not. Well done.
Tyrion is still a terrible person though, murdering Shae is awful stuff. But Tyrion can’t stand his ego being hurt and is ready to murder in response. Of course, his fans would be quick with the excuses and justifications. I find it hilarious when a multiple murderer is called “a good guy”.
Jaime – another example why he’s the worst kingsguard member ever. He let a convincted kingslayer free even after he admitted his guilt and this got another member of the royal family murdered.
I’ll just point out Leigh’s hysterically funny foreshadowing, though she didn’t mean it quite this way, back in part 44 of the read:
“I still believe it’s better to keep Tywin (and, honestly, all his progeny, Tyrion included) as far from the throne as possible.”
@30 – No, you’re not the only one. My first thought was “Oh mannnn, she’s been working with Tywin all along?!!!” Then I remembered how she had been the only one to recognize Varys in his Begging Brother costume and her explanation for that. That made me realize that she really was a whore and not just some poor peasant girl who was just doing the best she could with the cards she’d been dealt. So, I was totally unmoved by her death. I understand that she had very few choices in this world; but working with Tywin from the very beginning changes her from being just a pawn. To me, Shae was trying to play her own version of the Game of Thrones and lost. And we all know what happens when you lose the Game of Thrones.
My only regret was that Tyrion had to be the one to do it.
Good commentary. The thing about Shae is, I don’t think Tyrion killed her simply for betraying him. I think it was the manner of the betrayal. True, she didn’t have a choice, but telling everyone about the nickname that she gave him, and turning it into a cruel jape was what signed her death warrant. She started calling him that. He never asked her to. And revealing it at the trial was completely unnecessary, and what hurt Tyrion the most. If she hadn’t of done that, I don’t think he would have killed her.
@36 Exactly! It wasn’t finding Shae in his father’s bed that snapped Tyrion, it was her repetition of her pet name for him, the one she cruelly revealed and mocked at the trial. And there is nothing to indicate she was working with Tywin-she likely seduced him soon after Tyrion was arrested, after she agreed to testify for Cersei. The fact that Tywin turns out to be a hypocrite doesn’t mean he was working with Shae, just that he held Tyrion to a higher standard than he adhered to.
Oops
WTF?
So long into this series, and people are still discussing who is a good guy and who isn’t as if it mattered…
@32: Didn’t Bronn steal Shae away from some man-at-arms?
I never got the impression that she was working with Tywin, just that he was a hypocrite about prostitutes. And if she had told Tyrion, “I’m sorry about what I said at your trial, but without your protection I have to look after myself,” then he probably wouldn’t have done anything to her. The combination of her “my giant of Lannister” with his anger at the Tysha revelation made him murderous. It was the wrong thing to say at the wrong time.
It struck me as out of character for Tyrion to tell Jaime that he was responsible for Joffrey’s death. It just made me think that GRRM did that for some later plot point. We shall see…
Hey, look, plenty of pages left in the book. The party’s not over yet!
[Edited to add: Didn’t mean to duplicate MDNY’s thoughts; those posts appeared while I was hunting-and-pecking out my own.]
The evidence on Shae working for Tywin all along seems pretty inconclusive to me. It’s a natural conclusion to just to, but there’s no specific evidence for it (can anyone think of a time when Tywin had information about Tyrion that he didn’t get bylywi some other means?).
I’m not convinced that Shae was working with Tywin from the beginning, but between Tywin and Varys, I think she was bought. She had to protect herself at the trial, of course, as she has no one to defend her. She’s just trying to survive. But the cruel bit using the nickname she gave him, was too much. Her performance at the trial was what convinced me that she was in cahoots with Tywin. And the the “proof” in the bedroom, where she played Tyrion all wrong, sealed her doom. She needed to grovel and weep to Tyrion. I think he fully understood her delicate position in the castle, but she tried to seduce him here! I won’t miss her duplicitness for a nano second. Bye Shae!
Patricide is a nasty business, but if anyone ever deserved it, it was Tywin, in the can, with the crossbow…..by Tyrion!
I think Tywin and Shae was a recent thing. In an earlier Jamie pov, Cercei had backed out of the deal she made with Shae for testifying on Tyrion and she turned to Tywin to get what she was promised.
Finally caught up with the read (just discovered it recently), Leigh, thank you for sharing your wonderful perspective and comments diring this read, I will probably follow along with your WOT re-read once I start that series (or is it super spoiler heavy?)
What a great chapter to catch up on, probably one of my favorite Tyrion chapters. But I really hate Tywin, so that probably helps. I really like Varys basically knowing what was going to happen here, I actually see him more as Gene Wilder when he tells him to stop “Don’t… Stop… Come back…” For show watchers, this will be a really intereisting episode.
Tyrion telling Jamie he killed Joff, I really don’t know how Jamie will take it. Jamie really wasn’t upset that Joff was dead, and mused himself that Joff was broken. Time will tell I guess.
Also, Shalter, I enjoy your read as well, its nice hearing another fresh perspective. But stop filing stuff, this isnt the Malazan re-read ;-)
All the other commenters, your comments certainly make a lively discussion, so thanks to you too!
I thought that maybe Tyrion lied about killing Joffrey to take the blame off of Sansa, since he knew he was getting out of there anyway… More likely he just said it to hurt Jaime since he’s raging from the news about Tysha, but taking the blame off Sansa could be a nice side effect of that. That really was an incredibly awful truth for Tyrion to get about Tysha though, damn…
I’ve never been sure exactly what in the Tysha revelation made Tyrion so enraged at Tywin and Jaime. Is ordering the gang-rape of a woman less heinous if she’s officially a prostitute? Did Tyrion think the son of a proud lord could’ve gotten away with prolonged marriage to a peasant in this highly segregated world? Is it that Tywin inflicted him with the long-held belief that no woman could ever love him? And how exactly is this Jaime’s fault? Am I missing the point on account of apparently having desiccated seaweed for brains?
Shae’s killing severely marred this chapter’s enjoyableness for me. I don’t know that she was trying to seduce or hurt him with “lion of Lannister,” or simply trying in terror to placate him with the phrase he’d so liked in their intimacy. Bad choice, nonetheless. I can sort of understand Tyrion’s act toward his betrayer, but it forever changed my view of him, just as Shae’s callousness toward Lollys changed my view of her. Ugh. Few victories are unmitigated in this story. Joffrey died…endangering Tyrion and Sansa. Tyrion killed Tywin…and Shae. Arya got Needle and freedom…leaving men dead or dying. Oberyn stabbed Gregor…and died. So it goes…
I totally feel like Tyrion wasn’t thinking about Sansa at all there, he said what he said because he was angry and wanted to hurt Jaime. Let’s not assign chivalry where none existed, though he might have said the same thing in a calmer circumstance to protect her, that’s not what happened here.
This was a shocking development, I must admit I never gave the Shae thing much thought, I don’t know what would have happened if she didn’t say Giant of Lannister though. Her’s was not one of the deaths I cared about.
Shae and Bronn are very similar, they both serve Tyrion because he pays them well for their services, they join for the money, and while they like him, they wont die for him, which is why Bronn wont fight for him, and why Shae testifies against him. Bronn fighting the Mountain or Shae defending him in court would have been suicide for these lowborn people.
But the one thing that stands out to me in this chapter is Tyrion’s behaviour, sure Tywin deserved that and more, but Tyrion rewards Jaime’s honesty with cruelty, striking him and basically threatening to kill him, and falsely claiming to have killed his son. He threatens to kill Varys too, and he kills Shae who honestly had no chance but to betray him when he was imprisoned.
Nobody has mentioned Tyrion’s (false) confession in full: “You poor stupid blind crippled fool. Must I spell every little thing out for you? Very well. Cercei is a lying whore, she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know. And I am the monster they all say I am. Yes, I killed your vile son.”
This is true and known to the readers, but is presumably news to Jaime, and pretty significant news at that…
Tyrion seems to be embarking on a dangerous arc. It will be very interesting to see how GRRM handles this. A bloodsoaked path of vengeance and betrayal in which he allies with Dany and betrays his remaining family, a sink into dreamwine dens and self pity, a heroic quest to save Tysha only to find her old/dead/embittered/?–could be any or any combination of these.
Killing Shae, who wasn’t innocent but was coerced by the power of others, seems to call for some sort of downfall on Tyrion’s part. Killing his father, who totally deserved it, would also seem to bring up problems in the traditions of Westros. If Jaime is Kingslayer then Tyrion’s sobriquet would seem to be Kinslayer–especially since in most peoples minds he also killed Joffrey. Actually, come to think of it, that would make him Tyrion Kingslayer-Kinslayer. Way to overachieve there dude.
I demand one more notch of honour to be written down in ms. Leigh book of deeds for Lord Commander of the Kingsguard here.
@47: Because Jaime knew that Tysha really was a crofter’s daughter, but was forced into Tywin’s plan to teach him a lesson, regardless, and has kept that a secret ever since, making him complicit. Considering that Tyrion considered him the one member of his family who was still fully in his corner, and his own love-hate relationship with Tywin…
@47 Aerona Greenjoy
It was my impression that Tyrion was enraged because he realized that Tysha was his one chance at real love, and Jamie and Tywin had taken it away from him. I believe that he realized how rare it was for her to truely love him, and that he had been denied a lifetime of having love in his life. I think it was the loss of real love, which he now values much more dearly because he has seen that there is so little of it in the world, that enraged him.
The first time I read this I was completely caught up in Tyrion’s story, thinking only of how he’d been affected by events, and I don’t remember reacting much to the killing of Shae. I don’t think I was thrilled about it, exactly, but it was soon overshadowed by the scene with Tywin.
With every rereading, it bothers me more and more. Not only do I feel worse for Shae, who really didn’t have a lot of options – yeah, the “Giant of Lannister” mention at court seems malicious, but then Cersei presumably made it clear she was to be very convincing, and that phrase was a handy tool just lying around unused, and Tyrion was already doomed as far as she could see… But there’s also what it says about Tyrion. Mockery merits death? She was supposed to put his feelings above her own wellbeing, all because he went and fell in love with her? As far as she was concerned, all they had was a business arrangement, and when that was over, she owed him nothing. But Tyrion had constructed a different story in his head, and when Shae went off his script, he killed her.
On Tysha… yeah. Tyrion’s rage there – the new rage – is all about himself. He finds out that his belief that nobody would ever love or want him for anything but his money was false. But what was done to Tysha would be no less horrible if she had been a whore – except in the mindset of the culture, which apparently Tyrion is not as free of as he’d like to believe, or like everybody else to believe. Oh, and except for that final piece de resistance of Tyrion going last, which I suppose is worse if Tysha really did love him, but then at that point she’d already been so brutalized… Yeah. It hurts to think about her.
I’m not buying the Shae as double agent thing. I imagine Tywin ordered her to come to his bed – it’s not like she could say no, she is acting purely for survival here – she lives in the real world, and just because Tyrion fell in love with her doesn’t mean she owes him anything beyond their business arrangement.
It’s understandable, but Tyrion has huge amounts of self-pity going on here – a reasonable response to being mocked is not to choke someone to death. Don’t get me wrong Tyrion is one of the most fascinating characters in the books and I never particularly liked Shae, but this is still one of his worst acts, even worse than killing Tywin (which is somewhat more justifiable).
I imagine all the Tyrion supporters are going to hate me saying this but I think it’s important to look at Tyrion as a very morally grey character rather than the hero that some people seem to view him as.
@55 I think I pretty much agree with you here – I was the same the first way through being caught up in Tyrion’s POV, but now on the reread his less than admirable qualities are a bit more obvious.
And absolutely the Tysha thing is all about him rather than about her – whether she was a whore or not should change nothing about the moral repugnance of what was done to her, but I think there’s a part of him that thinks she ‘deserves’ it for deceiving him – despite the fact that she had absolutely no power in this situation. Possibly being a bit harsh on Tyrion here, but I think you made a great point!
@50 – I think that’s the key point of the entire chapter, really. There’s no particular reason to think that Jaime really cares who killed Joffrey – he doesn’t have any real paternal feelings for his children (at most he’s avuncular in the literal sense), and he knows as well as anyone the kind of trouble a sociopathic king can cause.
But the relationship between Jaime & Cersei is central to the story – in a way, it’s what kicked off the whole damned war to begin with. Discovering that she has been faithless could lead to another split in the Lannister clan… and with Daddy dead, there’s no-one who can knock heads and keep everyone else in line.
Great stuff as usual, but I’m very surprised you didn’t even cover the fact that Shae was in the Tower of the Hand, in TYWIN’S BED, naked except for the Hand’s chain of office. That I think is why Tyrion killed her as much as anything…I think he could have forgiven her betrayal before and understood it, but now she’s sleeping with his father? And let’s not even delve into what that says about Tywin himself.
Tyrion’s seriously messed-up RE sex, prostitution, and love.
Tyssha and Shae are opposites. Tyssha gave Tyrion love, and he allowed himself to be fooled into believing it was fake – that she was just a prostitute offering sex. Shae was always a prostitute, giving Tyrion sex, not love. And yet he continually tried to make it into something more. He fooled himself into believing that she loved him.
Hence, his overreaction to her “betrayal.” He should have remembered Shae was a prostitute, and her words and actions were always for sale. There was no betrayal, because there was no love or loyalty there – just Tyrion scratching an itch, and Shae trying to get as much as possible from him.
________
The other thing that always catches me is a giant WTF?!!? at Shae in Tywin bed. When I first read it, I thought she was CHAINED to his bed, and I thought OK, Tywin’s torturing her, a little kinky, but I could see it. Then I reread it, and realized she was playing with his almighty HAND CHAIN. So, obviously she’s making herself all nakedly relaxed and at home in Tywin’s chamber – in Tywin’s bed.
WTF??!!!?
I figured Tywin would be shtupping a higher class of courtesan. Somebody discrete. Somebody elegant. Somebody NOT PREVIOUSLY FUCKED by his son. Makes me think the Lannister words are something like: Sex – It’s All In The Family. Or: We Like Incest. Or: We Got No Fuckin’ Boundaries.
It’s so freaking creepy that Tywin sleeps with not just a prostitute despite his protestations about whores, but HIS SON’S prostitute. I think Tywin hates Tyrion because they are so much alike in a way and Tywin doesn’t want to face that.
Dont know about the triple asshole thing but it sure is poetic justice that the man who was all about legacy will be remembered for having died on a toilet.
Also, “Very well. Cersei is a lying whore, she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know. And I am the monster they all say I am. Yes, I killed your vile son.”
Its actually more the first part than the second that really blows Jaime’s mind.
Shae and Bronn are very similar, they both serve Tyrion because he pays them well for their services
As someone or other said ages ago, “It’s easy to forget, when you watch all those scenes with Tyrion and Shae and Bronn, that you’re watching a man talking to the man he pays to be his buddy and the woman he pays to be his girlfriend.”
I have to echo Maddy’s and Lyanna’s comments here. Reading the scene at the first time had me firmly on Tyrion’s side. Shae was a double-crossing whore, and even though I never believed that she was in love with Tyrion (he seemed to be fooling himself in that way) she still deserved death for putting both Tyrion and Sansa under the bus for saving herself.
It was only after an argument with another fan that I started reflecting on the troubles associated with the common born lowerclass people. And then I saw that Shae really didn’t have too much of a choice in what she did. Tyrion decided to put her in as Sansa’s maid. After Joffrey died and Sansa fled, Shae and Brella (her maids) were the first people questioned about it. I’m sure that Cersei wised up to the fact that a former prostitute has almost no business acting as maid to a high born lady like Sansa, unless she was specifically put there by someone in charge. And if Tyrion had put her there, then there was likely only one reason for it.
So yeah, while she may have twisted the knife unnecessarily when she stabbed Tyrion with it, I don’t think that “death” was deserved here. Her situation was precarious enough to warrant a “betrayal” of Tyrion’s confidence, though it’s not really a betrayal since she’s not in love with him and he just thought she was. Of course, this being Westeros, the common people always end up dead if they’re caught in the middle of a conflict, so I wasn’t really surprised that she died.
For the longest time I was sure Shea was a Tywin spy, because I think I have just came to expect the worst in people with this series, but after re-reading I’m more and more convinced, that Shea was really just a not so bright camp follower in way over her head.
Also interesting in this chapter that Tyrion identifies himself very strongly as Tywins son during/after the killings.
Shae did get a raw deal here, but I don’t think there’d be another approach Tyrion could have had with her. He wanted to interrogate his father about Tysha’s whereabouts and kill him when he discovered the secret passage. Difficult to do that with someone that could capture him alive at his back. Someone that had already betrayed him before when the situation forced her to. If he had let Shae live, she could
a) capture Tyrion when he was distracted with his father. Tywyn would reward her in private with more money, but not in public (it’s not to be known that the Hand used whores).
b) not intervene in the Tyrion-Tywin affair and not go away with Tyrion. If she was found out in the morning after still in the Hand’s bedroom, she’d be prime suspect of aiding the murder, and would probably be executed.
c) Go away with Tyrion after he murdered his father. Considering there’d probably be a great reward for Tyrion’s head after this and that Tyrion wouldn’t have any money since he’s no longer in contact with his family, there’d be even more reasons for her to betray him afterwards.
Is there a scenario where Shae doesn’t betray Tyrion in the Hand’s room or afterwards? Probably only the ones in which Tyrion kills or incapacitates her first. Not saying it’s justified morally (it’s not) and not saying it was pre-planned thing (it was a crime of passion), just saying that, on top of all that, it was actually the rational thing for Tyrion to do.
Interesting to notice that Bronn wasn’t questioned after the Joffrey murder and / or he didn’t testify against Tyrion. It’s known Bronn is an important man under Tyrion’s command. He even participates in a murder (against a bard) ordered by Tyrion, but noone knows that. He also is called by Tyrion during the trial. And yet he doesn’t appear during the trial testifying against Tyrion. Very weird that. Shows a kind of nobility on the part of Bronn that I didn’t think was there or a oversight of Tywyn and Cersei that’s uncharacteristic.
TedThePenguin@45:Thanks.
@Everyone: Thanks for confirming the reasons I’d been vaguely guessing at. (Whoops, I meant “giant,” not “lion.”)
@leigh: Take note of post 50 and those echoing it.
@49: Good note on Tyrion’s death threats. Many characters, from Arya to Rorge, habitually respond to people who antagonize them by wanting/threatening to kill them. A dangerous reflex for Tyrion to develop.
@64: “When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.” That old proverb is a major sub-theme in this story.
I could never feel sorry for Shae, because it becomes obvious in hindsight/on re-read that she never cared at all for Tyrion, that it was always about the jewels/clothing. Yes, she had no choice to testify, but she embelishes and humilates Tyrion far more than would be necessary. Then she goes and starts sleeping with the man that sat in judgment against Tyrion. In the end, she had less loyalty than Bronn, for at least on some level Bronn liked Tyrion, but I am convinced that Shae never did. Granted, she still may not have deserved death, but it’s hard to mourn.
@62: That last line seems a bit spoilery, since we haven’t gotten back into Jaime’s head yet.
Steven Halter@51: Or Tyrion could be called “hero”.
Capper@54: I agree. Tyrion was in a blind rage about Tysha. Thus, he lashed out at Jaime (probably not wise, nor his best moment), but took his true vengence out on Tywin, who deserved it. Shae was a poor Tysha substitute. She “loved” Tyrion for what he could do for her. I guess that is the definition of “whore”. (Not that women in Westeros have a whole lot of choices, should they decide to “better” themselves.)
Ryamano@66: I concur…I don’t think Tryrion had much of choice when he found Shae in Tywins room. Her presence put him in a very precarious position. If she lived, she’d be a prime suspect in Tywins murder, she’d be a witness to regicide, and in fact might have interfered with Tyrions deed, stopping it or killing him. I don’t think she truly cared about him either.
Why would Shae care about Tyrion? It was a job for her, she was giving Tyrion exactly what he was (supposedly) paying her for. And let’s be honest, you have got to be at least somewhat of a masochist to have romantic feelings for someone like him. The looks are only a small part of it, his million issues with women and him being a big time jerk in general are far more problematic.
re:Tysha: The way I read it, Tyrion’s reaction to these news is mostly down to his own guilt and self-loathing. Firstly, it turns out that she loved him after all – and suffered terribly for it. If she was not deceiving him, it means that the whole marriage sittuation was all his fault. Then there’s the horrbile truth of what Tyrion himself did to her: I’m pretty sure he would have refused to rape her knowing she loved him. Not that raping a whore would be any better, something that only adds to the confused mix of guilty emotions. There’s also the guilty knowledge of how quickly he was willing to believe worst of a woman he loved, thus adding to her suffering. Some of these burdens could be shifted to other people, hence Tyrion’s over-the-top-reactions to everyone he meets: To Jaime for lying and making Tyrion believe worst of Tysha, to Varys for not helping him earlier and causing him to find out the truth, to Shae for not being like Tysha, to Tywin for… well, everything. However, in doing so he only adds to his own burdens of self-loathing, as well as burning bridges.
I could never understand the claims that Shae deserved her fate. I didn’t like her and I can sort of see where Tyrion was coming from, but to say that she owed any loyality to a man who paid to bed her and didn’t treat her all that well most of the time… wtf?
Tektonica@71:GRRM is, of course, going for complexity. In a way Jaime and Tyrion are balancing each other. As Jaime rises, Tyrion falls and vice versa. In this chapter, Tyrion kills two people–one deservedly and one not so much. He also foreswears his past allegiences. Jaime has deep flaws from his past but seems to be trying to atone. All very Byronic:
Re: flagging comment 62 as spoilery, I’m going to leave the comment up. As it stands, it’s relevant to the chapter at hand, but any further discussion on that point and Jamie’s reactions after this chapter should be directed to the spoiler thread.
@69
But Shae didn’t owe Tyrion any loyalty. She’s not his wife, or his lover. She gets paid to sleep with him, and she does. Now she’s expected to care about him, too? Enough to protect him even if it puts her in danger? She never agreed to that!
You say she embellishes “more than necessary” in court, but we don’t know what was demanded of her. Cersei clearly arranged the testimony – don’t you think she’d have made it very clear that no hedging or reluctance would be allowed? Make Tyrion look as bad as possible, would’ve been the order, if I know anything about Cersei. And Shae would know enough about Cersei by now to be afraid of what she might do if thwarted…
As for sleeping with Tywin – do we know that she had a choice in the matter? Yeah, she tries to play it to her advantage once she’s in his bed, but we don’t know if she chose to be there or if she was just making the best of the situation once it was made clear what was expected of her. I very much doubt if Shae could’ve seduced Tywin, so I kinda think the initiative was his, which wouldn’t leave her much room to say no.
Even if she had a choice, why would Shae refuse to have the richest man in Westeros for a client just because her previous client hated him?
Seems like Varys would know if Shae was a double agent.
It was totally Tywin’s initiative that put Shae in his bed. It would have delighted him no end to “possess” her.
The thing that really gets me excited about this chapter is how different Tywin’s death is from Joffrey’s. I must admit I was surprised by the glee Leigh felt about Joff’s dying. Myself, when I first read that chapter, I was deeply disappointed. That’s it?? We learn to hate this little shit for two and a half books, and we can’t even get a satisfactory death scene for him? It’s very clever how GRRM manages to make it so anticlimactic; we don’t even actually see Joff die! If memory serves, it goes like this: Tyrion looks at Joffrey clawing at his throat, then he looks around at the chaos and thinks something, then in the next sentence he’s looking at “Joffrey’s corpse”. The reader is robbed of the actual moment of death!
In contrast, Tywin’s death is highly poetic, and Tyrion gets several awesome one-liners. Even Shae’s death, conflicting though it may be, is poetic, and gets a one-liner. And the closing sentence to the whole chapter is an awesome one-liner! That’s proof more than anything that Tyrion didn’t kill Joff, because when Tyrion kills, he does so with style!
That said, I was kind of sad to see Tywin go. If he existed in real life he would be an evil, sociopathic bastard, but he’s a really fun character to read about. Unlike Joff, who I was happy to see die – but not so anticlimactically! I see what you’re doing, GRRM….
This might be an ancillary point but: just because Tyrion has massive self-esteem issues doesn’t mean that Shae is ‘obligated’ to love him or to die for him- she gets paid to sleep with him and that’s it, sure she’s shallow and clearly using Tyrion to better her own circumstances but I think that’s realistic for someone in her position – ultimately pragmatic and concerned with her own survival. I would be more annoyed if the Tyrion/Shae relationship became this awful ‘Pretty Woman’ trope where she falls in love with him just because he treats her well or whatever – even though he doesn’t really treat her as a person, she’s a Tysha replacement.
This is probably my strong feminist leanings coming through here, but I have a lot of trouble with the notion, in fiction or in real life, that women are obligated to do certain things for men just because they were nice to them, which is why it makes me really angry when, for example, people hate Sansa for not sleeping with Tyrion. She doesn’t ‘owe’ Tyrion anything! Yes he’s the ‘nicest’ of her captors, but Sansa has no good reason to trust or even like Tyrion, it’s not her responsibility to ‘fix’ him or to exist to make him feel better about himself. Anyway rant over. I can’t wait to see Leigh’s reaction to the rest of what’s coming up – there might only be a few chapters to come, but unbelievably there is still some insane crazy shit left to hit the fan.
The main thing I liked about this chapter was how characteristic of Tywin his final moments are. Even on the toilet and looking at the business end of a loaded crossbow, he doesn’t for a second entertain the possibility that he’s not in complete control, casually doing the exact thing the crossbow-wielder had threatened to shoot him if he did.
I guess Jaime can stop wondering how Osmund Kettleblack made it to the Kingsguard.
As every week, I enjoyed this read a lot. Thank you, Leigh!
It is interesting that Shae and Tyrion killing her is getting so much discussion here!
Shae is a whore after all and it is Tyrion’s yearning for being loved that is delusional. After being betrayed of Cersei it is quite understandable that she went to Tywin. But it was quite cheap to reveal her petname for Tyrion in the way she did during the trial and then try to seduce him using the same term, again. I did not like her before because of her greedy behavior and now thought her simply pathetic. But of course she never deserved to be murdered or rather manslaughtered. After all Tyrion went through, (beginning from the failed assassination attempt by Mandon Moore/Cersei at the Blackwater battle and his further deformation; losing his position as Hand where he really excelled; being falsely accused as murderer; so nearly losing the trial by battle; locked in the dark cells deprived of light etc.; and then learning of the betrayal of the one member of his family whom he always thought was his true ally) I think it is imaginable that he snapped hearing her call him “my giant of…”.
On the other side like someone stated before, it would have proably led to desaster, had she lived and witnessed his kinslaying… I even do not want to think about going down that way!
And :
May I suggest, that the next two chapters of Sam and Jon should be combined? I think that they are related and would be kind of akward to comment to in two seperate posts.
@80 Davyd: Hmm, I kinda disagree with the Joffrey thing. When I was reading that scene, it was almost like I was in the courtroom with him while he was dying – the confusion with all the people running away became my confusion about whether he was really going to die then or not. And then he finally dies! Right there! With Cersei watching the whole thing! (Yes, I’m not being very charitable here, taking pleasure in a thing like that, but screw it, I was completely unrepentent then and still am now.)
And then next chapter Sansa escapes! Sailing away for home (well, away from KL at least) while the bells were still ringing Joffrey to his grave. And then we find out who actually killed him. Tywin’s death wasn’t the only one with ironic poetic justice here, though I guess killing Joff was a more proactive move by the Tyrells.
I know Leigh said that Joffrey’s death wasn’t really going to have major ramifications in the political system of Westeros (not like the way Tywin’s does). But in sheer terms of people getting what they deserve – hell yes. Best chapter (or set of chapters) ever. And really, who wanted Joffrey to grow up and become a ruler in his own right?
@81: Thank you for that. I really get annoyed when people claim that women “owe” men love/sex/whatever just because they’re nice to them. And ugh, the “all he needs is a good woman” trope! Yes, it’s popular in romance novels and what else, but it’s rarely true in real life – it’s amazing that some people don’t realize that women have lives of their own, and maybe don’t want to spend them being the primary caregivers for a “broken” man.
I don’t think Tywin was being a hypocrite in his stance about whores. It wasn’t Tyrion sleeping with whores that was a problem for him, it was the fact that he was so freaking blatant about it. Tywin’s probably been sleeping with whores since Tyrion was born and NO ONE KNEW; Lannister prestige was not damaged. I firmly believe Tywin didn’t care what his children did as long as the reputation of the House remained intact.
As for Shae, it wasn’t that she betrayed Tyrion that got her killed it was the way she went about it. She could have just lied and made it look like Tyrion had in fact plotted to kill Joffrey, and been fine, but she had to go the extra mile and put in the personal touches.
@86 Bloodraven
re: Tywin and whores
Good point. I don’t think his order regarding Shae was a ‘no whores’ policy but a ‘don’t bring that woman everyone knows is your personal whore to court’ order (he, “court order”). Tyrion could have continued to take all the whores he likes as long as it remained private business. But keeping a whore around for all King’s Landing to see would have been against the family’s interests. Shae was just too well known already to take her to King’s Landing and still keep up appearances.
re: Shae’s “betrayal”
I kinda agree and disagree here. I’m with you that the betrayal wasn’t what made Tyrion kill her but I disagree that it was her low blows in the trial that tipped him over the edge. I think it was the fact that despite all that she had done in the trial she just reverted back to her little lovebird persona. If in this situation she had just been honest about what she had done and who she is, she’d have survived her encounter with Tyrion.
But going back to “Oh my poor giant of Lannister, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways!” is one hell of an insult and completely disregarding Tyrion’s feelings, intellect, dignity, what have you. I’m not saying that she deserved to be killed for it, but I understand why it made Tyrion kill her. He’s already at rock bottom and she just kicks him in the nuts, intentionally or not.
Actually, with all the manipulation skills she exhibited prior to this, it’s kinda baffling how royaly she fucks it up here.
@81
Yeah, there’s quite a bit of Nice Guy syndrome that gets expressed on Tyrion’s behalf sometimes…
I have a lot of trouble with the notion, in fiction or in real life,
that women are obligated to do certain things for men just because they were nice to them
OTOH, don’t forget that the reason Tyrion is somewhat annoyed with Shae is not just that she held him up to public ridicule, but also that she stood up in court and lied on oath in order to get him sentenced to death for a murder he didn’t commit. Some degree of pique is understandable, in the circumstances.
@89 Absolutely Tyrion’s act is completely understandable but also somewhat detestable. If he had just killed Tywin, I don’t think I would have such a problem, because obviously dude is an ASSHOLE and clearly was happy to let Tyrion be executed, we can’t know for certain of course but at the very least whatever went down that caused Shae to betray Tyrion, she is clearly at the bottom of the ladder in regards to power and agency compared to Tyrion, Cersei etc.
Given Tyrion’s insecurities about any woman loving him and the hell he just went through I completely understand why he snapped but that doesn’t mean it’s morally ‘correct’, even if it can be hard to judge what that is in this world.
That’s why Martin is such an amazing writer in that he creates such nuanced characters that you can empathise with despite and because of their actions because even if you don’t agree with their actions they are at least understandable. I’m STILL amazed at how much I root for Jaime now after getting inside his head, and while Tyrion is still one of my favourite characters there is a definite darkness to his character that culminates in this chapter. It’s pretty ridiculous that I’m rooting for characters on completely different sides of this conflict, and that’s because as much as the plot intricacy and world building are obviously amazing in these books, it’s the characterisation and believabality that makes me so engrossed in them.
I spoke to my husband about this pretty recently, because when I first read it, Shae’s death already made me slightly uncomfortable. I haven’t re-read yet, so it’s difficult to say how I’d feel about it, but I imagine it wouldn’t be any better.
With all the back and forth in the comments, it is worthwhile to follow a thought through. Specifically, if Shae was engaged in a services paid services rendered arrangement, it’s essentially a business contract, no? In business, you violate a contract after carefully considering the consequences and then make a decision accordingly (mileage may vary on those consequences but that’s business). Arguably, Shae did this, at least to a certain extent, because she figured she would probably be better off with the Lannister(s) on top than the one (soon-to-be) in disgrace. But I put forward that she did not do this as fully as she should have.
Seriously, aSoIaF 101. What do you not do to a Lannister? Betray them. Even in a business contract, you can betray it (the official language being ‘renege’ but it’s just semantics when you consider they both mean you’re going back on what you said or agreed to). She reneged on a contract with a Lannister who, as a family, are not known for their moderation when it comes to being betrayed. Can you guess what happens next? Here’s a hint: They wrote a song about it.
@@@@@ 91
But did she renege on the deal? Or did Tyrion stop paying her? He was in jail, after all. I hardly think he asked Uncle Kevan to pay her for him. Admittedly, I don’t have my book with me to double check, but I was under the assumption that Shae was no longer getting paid, and therefore she was a free agent and not under any obligation to Tyrion. Add in the fact that she was hardly in any position to deny Cersei/Tywin what they wanted from her…
If it wasn’t for Tyrion’s thick plot armor, Shae would’ve been fine and with the richest man in the realm for a client, probably with a sizeable reward for her participation in the trial too.
@92. Tyrion’s been paying her extra all along, both money and jewels. Seems fair not for her to be considered a free agent until she knows he’s gone. Especially, as noted by @91, given concerns about incurring Castamere-type “debts” to Tyrion. Granted, I doubt she was in position to say no to Cersei or Tywin.
Tywin Lannister is one of my favorite characters of the entire series. It’s realy sad to see him go. He’s basically the most competent ruler that Westeros has right now.
I have always been perplexed by the notion that Jaime was doing something decent by telling Tyrion truth about Tysha at this precise moment. I mean, Tyrion had lost everything and even once Jaime gives him a chance to escape KL, his long-term survival looks more than tenious. And Jaime thought it a good idea to reveal such an awful truth to Tyrion who was already deeply, deeply down? What an amazingly selfish thing to do.
Seriously, I like Jaime, I liked him even before his reveal of reasons for the kingslaying, but this? Is callous. Yea, Jaime wanted to unburden himself, I understand that, but Tyrion’s situation and state of mind were bad enough without Jaime making everything much worse still.
And asking whether Tyrion killed Joff? Really? Really?!!! I bet that this hurt and enraged Tyrion a lot too. That not even Jaime could believe in him, in his innocence.
Speaking of Jaime being “forced” to lie to Tyrion – Jaime has always been able to resist Tywin on the issues that were important to him. And really, it sounds more like Tywin convinced him – much like he convinced Tyrion to marry Sansa. He could be very persuasive, as we have seen.
But after caving to him, Jaime certainly should have at least monitored what happened next.
He, of all people, could have stopped/prevented the gang-rape. And it wasn’t the first time that Tywin blindsided Jaime with his cruelty either – didn’t Jaime say the same thing about deaths of Rhaeghar’s wife and children? “I didn’t know that he was going to do this”. Well, this second time Jaime should have bloody checked what was happenning!
Re: Tysha’s “true love” – I was always sceptical about that. Now, I am not saying that she was a gold-digger or that she didn’t like Tyrion. But would she have liked him if he was a poor dwarf, rather than a lordling? I doubt that.
IMHO, Tyrion’s rich clothing, grooming, educated speech, ability to provide her with shelter and delicious food all played a role in their whirlwind romance. As it probably (almost) always does when common women take up with nobles in their society.
Which doesn’t diminish the awfulness that followed, of course.
Maybe it could have become “true love” given time… but I see only healthy infatuation in what we know about the affair.
OTOH, certainly, the “sharp lesson” did convince Tyrion that he could never be attractive to women or even liked by anybody without direct monetary transactions.
Shae… Hm. Yes, she did seem to be malicious and mocking in her testimony, beyond what would have been expected/required of her. OTOH, Tyrion did take away her silks, velvets and jewels “for sauf-guarding” when he moved her to the Red Keep and never gave them back, despite repeated prodding from Shae. When he almost died at the Blackwater she tried to get her stuff back, but Varys made it clear to her that she couldn’t have it. So, she had a reason to be miffed at Tyrion and to overperform.
Frankly, it didn’t really matter what she said or didn’t say to Tyrion when he found her in Tywin’s bed, IMHO. Tyrion couldn’t take the chance of her alerting the guards and/or Tywin and once she got up, she could have easily overpowered him/escaped, etc.
Speaking of which, the are a lot of interesting details that may lead to something… Or not.
Like, a few chapters previously Tyrion had been inspecting the docks and specifically thought how only very few ships frequented King’s Landing because of the destruction of facilities that battle left in it’s wake and all the dangerous wrecks in the harbour. Yet Varys apparently finds a ship in a matter of hours!
Varys showed Shae some of his secret passages – she knew how to operate the entrance to one in his room. She also had been brought to the Hand’s bedchamber through the secret passage in the past.
The Lannister guardsmen overheard by Tyrion seemed to be unaware of Shae’s presence in Tywin’s bedroom,
and, of course, Varys’s ever so helpful directions to Tyrion despite some very token protests… Hm…
Isilel – Jaime’s doing his 12-step making up for all his past wrongs but strongly agree that discretion …just…MIGHT…have been a better choice here. Also nice point about the double whack Jaime gave to Tyrion here: Tysha and actually asking whether Tyrion killed Joff. If even Jaime doubts him, of course Tyrion is going to go ballistic and confess all manner of horribles.
@@@@@ 96, Isiel:
You, know, that part of your post reminded me of Titanic. True love of 2 young people who don’t really know each other. Let’s have the Titanic romance story of the couple married for years that would still sacrifice for each other.
Back to the thread.
Maddy1990@61:
Actually, if things are as they seem – i.e. that Tywin had been whoring in secret for all these years, it would underscore how _different_ he and Tyrion are/were.
Because, Tyrion would have settled down with one (good-looking) woman who liked him if given a chance. What he got from the prostitutes, along with the obvious, was the illusion of emotional warmth. After all, he only had the mostly absent Jaime for that and even there, he had to compete with Cersei, who loathed him.
Tywin, OTOH, seems to have had a loving marriage with his first wife and could have remarried again if celibate life-style didn’t suit him. He also seemed to get unshakeable emotional support from his brother Kevan and was supremely unlikely to look for something in that vein from the whores. So, the whole super-secret whoring set-up seems highly unnecessary and dare I say, emo in his case. And I absolutely don’t see Tyrion doing something like that in Tywin’s shoes.
OTOH, given the twisted relationship between Tywin and Tyrion it would make sense for me if Tywin chose to “claim” Shae in that way even if he was not in the habit of whoring in general. To prove his dominance or whatever.
Jepsie @95:
I agree with you. I think that despite his many faults Tywin was a gifted administrator and ruler, in the manner of great medieval/Renaissance monarchs, who were all seriously not-nice people, BTW.
I also felt when I first read ASoS that it was too much a sop to the readership and that Martin didn’t have the courage to let antagonists win completely, even if it was to be only an intermediate victory. Because we all know that “wolves will come again”.
It doesn’t help that Tywin’s murder appears to be highly contrived and on the spur-of-the moment. I mean, how many things had to go Tyrion’s way for it to happen?
Finally, I consider it implausible that there are so many violent deaths in the series and so few from natural causes/disease. I would have preferred if Tywin did have a chance to rule well for a few years and then both he and Tommen would have just died in quick succession, for perfectly mundane reasons and the gameboard would be open again.
It would have gone well with GRRM’s initial and since then discarded plan of 5-years time-line skip after ASOS, too. Oh, well…
@92 and @94. I completely agree with your point that Shae was in a difficult position being caught between Lannisters and that the extent of what she could do was probably limited. My point Lyanna, was that Tywin’s reaction should not have been as much of a surprise/overreaction as some believe it was, considering he’s a Lannister etc.
I agree with RobM re: jewels and silks and pretty things being payment and possibly in advance, although it’s interesting to note Isilel’s comment about the fact that those were taken away when she was moved and then simply not returned to her as it does put a different perspective on it (I forgot about that part).
@99 Interesting. I don’t think it’s really the whoring thing that makes Tyrion and Tywin similar, but that they have a similar streak of ruthlesness, political acumen and desire for power. I think it’s ironic that as much as Tywin obviously favours Jaime, Jaime doesn’t seem to be nearly as interested in political power and while he definitely does ruthless things, they are more in the heat of the moment and impassioned if that makes any sense. I don’t know, the Lannister family dynamics are super fascinating and super screwed up.
I think it’s so fascinating and absolutely appropriate that Tywin dies like this – the guy that is so concerned with power and legacy of the Lannister name has completely screwed it up by neglecting the interpersonal relations of his own actual family members in pursuit of glory and power for the family name. Then he dies while taking a shit by the son who he treated so poorly for his whole life, which totally underscores his whole utilitarian argument about his methods and the Red Wedding and doing whatever is necessary – if you treat people like shit it’s going to come back to bite you, whether it’s your own son or commiting a war crime/ act of terrorism.
@81 and others:
I think the question of whether you sympathize with Shae is whether you believe she was coerced into the betrayal or not. (If you think it’s okay for Shae to betray Tyrion just because she’s a paid whore and doesn’t owe him anything and because life2hard, well, I think you’re missing out on some moral principles yourself, but that’s another topic).
Personally I don’t think she was “coerced” into it – Shae totally seemed to be enjoying herself with the golden chain on her neck. And her attempt to charm Tyrion instead of pleading “But they forced me to!” is seems meant to show you (literarily) that Shae is nothing more than a manipulator. I doubt Martin would bother writing the scene that way without intended for you to understand that Shae was happy to be “moving up” and had no qualms about what she just did to Tyrion. Which is in line with all the subtleties in every chapter with Shae. From the beginning she’s only interested in wealth and being pampered.
So yea, I’m satisfied to see her go. And I’m glad Tyrion was the one who got to do it. I don’t hold myself on some moral highground though. That’s not what this series is about. I liked the Shae scene because it was revenge, pure and simple. And Shae was a terrible person – one of the few in this series to deserve the death.
I think the question of whether you sympathize with Shae is whether you believe she was coerced into the betrayal or not.
No, it’s whether you “believe” she is a poor lower class woman who’s never had any true opportunities in life beside being a whore, who did the best she could to make that work for her. That necessarily precludes her from having loyalty to anyone, because NO ONE has any loyalty to her.
To say she was coerced, implies she had OPTIONS, which she didn’t. She had the “choice” to testify against Tyrion, make it believable and earn the “gratitude” of the royal family OR hang with Tyrion. That’s not actually a choice.
Shae’s never had any choices. She didn’t have one here, she didn’t have one in the camp when Bronn took her, she didn’t have any when Tyrion took her to KL(RISKING HER LIFE, mind you). You can’t hold her accountable for choices she’s never had the agency to make.
Shae’s not a manipulator because she derives joy from hurting others, she’s a manipulator because that’s what prostitutes do to survive. They’re next meal depends on telling believable lies to men who pay to hear them(which includes Tyrion, deluded fool he is).
@@@@@ 103 — So many times I come onto the thread (and I read the whole thread, having been well trained by Television Without Pity — “no repeating!!” — so very long ago), and I find I can just calmly and freely lurk because there’s a thing, but Aeryl has already said it, and so well!
So yeah, what Aeryl said. Relurking. :-)
(I find that having read this series twice, once when it first came out and a second time in prep for DwD, my perceptions have changed drastically. When I was a kid, I found myself “on Tyrion’s side,” not because his actions were correct, but because I’d spent three books being schooled to be “on his side,” and if I wasn’t on his side through this, then how could he bee a good guy? Second time around I can judge when his actions, though understandable, are not excuseable — but it doesn’t break my heart now, simply because… well, in this world, it makes him pretty status quo. But then, for me, right now, the story of ASoIaF is a story of the land, no longer of any of the specific people in it. There are still a couple characters whose “side” I’m on, more or less but I don’t see myself feeling nearly so gutted, disappointed, or disoriented if that should abruptly change.)
(OK relurking for real.)
If Shae deserved death for perjury, what does Tyrion deserves for his multiple murders and all other assorted crimes he’s committed? 20 death sentences? To be burned alive?
I think lost in all of this is the fact that Tyrion should have burned that bridge with Jaime. Jaime would have had even greater love from Tyrion if he had told Tyrion the truth oh so long ago. We can presume that Tywin would have been killed by Tyrion long ago.
Jaime lying or telling the truth could not have prevented what happened to Tysha, but maybe Tyrion, who was ordered to, wouldn’t have had a go or been able to. It’s one of the things he felt really guilty about even when he thought she was a whore.
Jaime may have a newfound purpose but only Brienne knows anything about it at this point. There is no reason for Tyrion to think his brother is any different from the one who ambushed Ned Stark in the street and then ran away to war in the Riverlands.
I know this is late and probably not a lot of peeps will even see this but what the hey.
I never felt sorry for Shae because I don’t see her as the victim of circumstance that most of the others in the comments seem to see her as. Most of you seem to think that she had no choice or that her best or only choice was to go along with the Lannisters. That she was found and coerced into testifying against Tyrion by Cersei or Tywin.
But here’s the thing, shae being in bed with Tywin is just too much of a coincidence. So what, Tywin just decided to bed the whore who testified against Tyrion at the trial? I don’t buy it. I think they were in bed together before Tyrion found them in bed together. Or at least before he found Shae in bed, Tywin was in the shitter.
I believe Shae’s betrayal was much more than just testifying against Tyrion becuase she had no choice. I have always seen her as a much more proactive participant than an unwilling victim. By the time of Tyrion’s imprisonment/trial, Shae was so pissed at Tyrion that she wanted to get back at him.
I think that Shae was so mad about the stuff that Tyrion had kept from her, the clothes and jewels that she knew she would never get back with him in prison or dead, that she went to Tywin and told him that she would give him what he needed to get rid of Tyrion if she could get her stuff back or be compensated for in some other way. Tywin then offered to make her life more comfortable by making her the Hand’s whore, maybe for just a little while or maybe for longer, an offer that Shae would jump at. What better way to get revenge on Tyrion?
Tywin is dead!!!!!! OMG!! I hope that if Tyrion does end up making it into the Free Cities that he and Arya end up meeting each other that would be amazing!!!!!!!!
I see Shae’s death as ac act of a broken Tyrion. I feel like he’s always seen himself as a kind-mild Lannister. He’s not beautiful like his family and hes not loved or appreciated because of his physical appearance and in his hunger for appreciation and recognition and acceptance by ANYBODY, he tries to do good deeds. and the one time someone saw past his physical disfigurement and saw his good inside, he was made to believe she was a lie as well. He was always on the verge of dying on the inside and coming to terms with never anyone loving him for what he was inside. he always tottered, i feel, because he still had hope that MAYBE in TIME (and he was willing to wait) that someone would genuinely care for him. and i feel that with an alive Tysha and a truthful Tysha, he had so many emotionals that even a king of giants couldnt hold on his shoulders. Plus the court and his family have been chipping away at Tyrion since Tywin came back to be Hand of the King. he has suffered WAY more deep slicing slights than only name calling. I think he just finally broke as he was climbing the ladder rungs.The pain in his heart was greater than the pains in his limbs. thats
Tywin was cold-hearted character doing what was needed for his family’s sake. I think his coldness came from the fact that his dad was cool with everyone and thus everyone was robbing him. But Balon was no bad guy. Yes, he was cruel with Theon, but nothing like Tywin-Tyrion. B. just didn’t know where his son’s loyalties were, considering he came back not like ironman – with things bought by gold, not iron. And offering that Stark crown ironman, instead of taking it yourself.
Shae didn’t offer her testimony because she was afraid but because she was promised a reward, her jewels and a knight for a husband by Cersei who reneged on the deal. She was probably in Tywin’s bed to get the reward she’d been promised. If she’d been honest with Tyrion instead of trying to manipulate him the old way she might have lived. When he asked if she’d ever liked his touch she should have said, “Yes. I like you, Tyrion, but I have to look out for myself. Nobody else will.” He might have understood that.